Saturday, June 19, 2010

White on Vizsla - Part Two


George Oren - Vizsla FT (Yahoo group) June 26, 2010





"The persistent objection to the occurrence of " white " on the coats of the Vizsla will only hasten the demise of our breed's excellent gun dog potential.

Those who breed only for the color of the coat, length of back, tail set etc. for excellence in the show ring and who do not pay attention to the Vizsla's original attributes are dooming this dog to the fate that occurred in the Golden Retriever and Irish Setter. Qualities such as bidability, "great nose",

athletic conformation, desire etc. must be regarded as the primary concern if we are interested in improving the Vizsla as a premier gun dog.

The Dual Vizsla is ideal.

However. the Dual dog's littermate (with "too much white") may well be the better gun dog. I would (and have) breed to the better gun dog. You do produce more conformation champions from hunting stock than field champions from show stock.

Also from my experience of over 42 years of attempting to provide myself with quality hunting Vizslas, I have developed the impression that the field dog is generally more healthy and free of genetic diseases such as epilepsy, allergies, "autoimmune disorders and tumors than the conformation bred dog.

The VCA with its arbitrary and discriminatory requirement of inspection on the line only perpetuates the misguided notion to some that only the dog without white (or very little white) is a "pure " Vizsla and therefore acceptable for breeding.

The VCA is limiting the exposure of a great many superb Vizslas by this action. A littermate of the NFC may well be a better dog but did not qualify.

Why is it not the line inspection required for obedience and agility?

It is said by some that it is because there is or has been " crossbreeding ".

To my knowledge there has not been any solid conformation of this.

But if crossbreeding has occurred, one only needs to look at the second generation's conformation-not the color.

Better yet, DNA analysis will without fail identify the parents of the dog.

DNA will not identify the breed!!

DNA cannot tell the difference between canine species.

My only objection to white on a Vizsla is that they are more difficult to see in a snowstorm.

Reply to "White on Vizslas" by


Diana Boggs - Vizsla Talk (Yahoo Group) June 20, 2010


  Please keep in mind what Vizsla people knew about the breed when Osborn wrote



his words in 1955 which was virtually nothing. Hunt had just completed a year of


intense letter writing with Mihalye Kende (who had yet to write his dozen or so


glorious historical articles) that had to be translated to & from & NO time to


print it so Osborn had more information at his hands after, not before he wrote


his article. Odds are very good that as historians behind him would discover the


more they thought right, the more they thought not right. That was due to MANY


problems, not World Wars withstanding.

Regarding Osborn's Words.....

* He says "at this time", he does not say "from now & forever more".


* the description Osborn gives does not indicate that white he describes is


DQ. In fact what he describes is acceptable even today.


* Regarding the keeping of white, I would point out what Osborn did with


"alleged white on an unacceptable place on the body" to counter the perhaps


mistaken assumption that Osborn would have deliberately bred unacceptable DQ


white by his "whitey" talk. Initially after he imported his first two Vizslas,


he mentions in another article about not white, but the thought of white that he


found unacceptable. Osborn states that one of them had what looked like surgical


scars from removing white from the body. When the possibility of what would


become clear DQ white was the issue, Osborn got rid of that dog & its "white".


* It is not known what Osborn did with his culls. He surely had them.

* It is an unconscionable fact of the fifties that Vizslas were bred in as


high of numbers possible, in order to get the necessary 500 3-generation


pedigrees. To my knowledge only the Hunts destroyed dogs who were ill-bred or


had a "known at that time" hereditary fault.


* Nor did Osborn know much "at that time" about the 1920 recreation details


when the breed had to be reconstructed because of the mass cross breeding by the


two guys who held the new studbooks (grin). That is more information that Kende


would supply in the future.

* Nor did Osborn know there were two studbooks created in 1920 & they were


closed 1936-1938.

* Osborn appears to have assumed that breeding of the Vizslas was never


interrupted, that the English Pointer & Irish Setter were there all along to


crossbreed to. That never happened until the very late 1800's & certainly not


for a thousand years henceforth. They did however back then crossbreed with


every thing under the sun including Herding breeds previous to 1920.


Throughout our time, crossbreeding was done for many different reasons.


* Osborn also heard that the Hungarians introduced the Pointer every ten


generations. That likely never happened since in 30 years you can't have ten


generations, let alone times that many. Nor could the ten generation theory


happen between 1920 & 1936 when the studbooks were closing. That sounds like a


nice Hungarian telling you the dog isn't purebred but because he bred it, it is


purebred.

* The problem with the color in 1920 was the color was too light. Have found


in text they thought that so because of the crossbreeding with the English


Pointer first introduced in 1880. What I think might have happened here, but no


idea how to debunk or establish my theory, but I think they thought that white


mixed up with colors just like paint & believed that breeding a white dog to a


red dog would make a yellow dog.


* That thought pattern might have been due to the fact that there was


European Pointers before there was the English Pointers & almost every European


Pointer breed is solid darker colors, (that I have found so far) If my theory


has legs, then that explains a link from Sweden that translates the original


Hungarian Standard accurately as having "correct" color as a yellowish/golden


color. Then too, that would explain why very very light Vizsla puppies would be


turning up into the sixties. (There is a photo of GY Mari with pups in an early


VN. It mentions these buff puppies as not abnormal occurences in purebred Vizsla


litters because of the crossbreeding before 1920).(Gy means Champion or CH)


* The Hungarians did indeed try to breed out the white, the reason they


couldn't do so may not have been so because white can't be bred out, but because


WWI & WWII made that impossible, & no theory could be proven or not. There just


never was enough time once studbooks had been established.

* Dog fanciers of the time followed two theories, one had to do with the


shape of the head determining what a dog could do & the other was eugenics, also


determined to not be accurate by today's standards. If you go to fosteraward.com


& click on their articles, breeding theories of the times & why bird dogs were


affected is verily explained. There are two very long pages. Click on just about


any link to get there & then scroll, because not all of the really good articles


have connectable links so you can get there.


* ALL of the breed wardens from Hungary all said to try to breed the white


out. That is what the Hungarians wanted. Osborn was simply stating to not toss


dogs out of the genepool because of white because of the temporary low numbers &


lack of genetic diversity "AT THAT TIME" (Osborn's words, not mine).


* At the time that Osborn wrote there were less than 200 Vizslas in the USA.


* People forget that Osborn pioneered OFA & using OFA;'d dogs to breed. What


do you think he would do if the dog was dysplastic & too much white? Or wasn't


dysplastic, but had some other inherited medical condition & too much white?


* Me thinks that people read what they want to see, in words that Osborn had


no idea would be so heavily scrutinized over fifty years later or he might have


done things differently.


* Osborn's judgment of the GSP, etc was not on the money. The GSP has been


crossbred with the Pointer since it was first imported to the US, according to


breed expert Bede Maxwell, author of several GSP books.

* Osborn's remarks on the Pointer are not right on either. The Pointer also


comes in mostly solid dark/other colors. The English Pointer was crossbred with


Hounds with white to produce that breed. So it seems, they included white as


"their" difference to the other Pointer colored breeds. For a group of people


(United Kingdom) who never got into dog breeding until late in the skeins of


evolution, they certainly established themselves in the forefront of hunting


breeds.


* Besides, Americans had already been breeding Vizslas with white. Look at


Sari, whose owners were prepared to drown puppies with more white than Sari when


born. Also note that Sari's white was in line for the breed Standard that she


competed against in Miscellaneous classes.

* Yes, some Vizslas in the fifties had white, but not in the numbers some


today would like you to think. I have a large collection of Vizsla photos from


40/50. They didn't have white stripes up their legs, on top of their heads, or


blending into the shoulder. I saw the dogs of the sixties. Sorry, but there just


wasn't that much white. I saw the dogs of the seventies. Sorry, but there just


wasn't that much white including inbred dogs. I saw the dogs of the eighties &


beyond & watched the numbers with too much white or oddly placed white steadily


rise. There is only one answer when that happens AND the field styled breed


silhouette changes. You don't slack off with the amount of white & then come


back growing up more white, more often as you go unless hinky things are in your


more recent backgrounds. As time proceeds the extensiveness & occurences of


crossbreeding from Hungary will diminish, not increase.


* It is a serious mistake to take to heart any of our breed historian


"records" or accountings. There are MANY discrepancies. Perhaps most cruel of


all to our historicans is that they didn't learn what they needed to know in the


order they needed to learn it so they would know. That assuredly happened to


Osborn, as well as John Straux, Marion Coffman & Clif Boggs. There are many


published so called "facts" of Vizsla history that are simply not likely true. I


say all of this "at this time" because tomorrow I may find something new that


substantiates earlier claims or denies them.




All that said, to go away by competition in field or show or breeding from the


COIMBINATION of FUNCTIONING HANDSOME HEALTHY Vizslas is a crime. Today with the


AKC Hunt Test, those ideals ARE being practiced on & growing every day. Field


Trialers need to give credit where credit is due......to AKC Hunt Tests, because


it is AKC Hunt Tests that are moving the median (not medium) line forward. Field


trials do not move the median line forward. Field trials separate from the


majority unless they bring them along too.



It is as big of a crime to build nothing but Vizsla show dogs who can't hunt as


it is to breed ugly, out of type Vizslas for the field. There MUST be a coming


together between the two for the breed to exist forever, which is why the breed


was created. One can not move forward without the other. Hungarian field trials


had breeding montra's that had teeth. If any Field Dog was found to not have


proper construction in meeting the Standard, those dogs were not only not


allowed to compete again, but would never be allowed to breed.



Breed improvement comes from the median line moving forward. There is nothing


that changes that. Just because a FTer thinks they have to keep upping the ante


to stay competitive in FTs is not as true as FTers like to insinuate. Articles


on the fosteraward.com page point that out in detailing competition theories.




Because the breed is a utility breed first, the albatross of responsibility lies


on the field interested Vizsla owners to conduct themselves so that the show &


other interests feel comfortable about getting together. AKC Hunt Tests must be


respected as it is there that AKC FTing is most likely to find their next


competitor & it is in AKC Hunt Tests where the median line resides. Dethroning


JH & SH titles does not make FTs look appealing. Field eventing exists not


because of the dog, but the person, the person who makes the choices, educates &


provides opportunity. So what if that person has a dog that some would look


askance at. If their interest is engaged & they get educated, they will want a


different kind of a dog, on their next dog & their next even better dog.


I don't disagree that Osborn was a "Master Breeder" if such a thing ever truly


existed. If he is, his succession to that throne had more to do with his


breeding choices, choice of puppy placements & sound health values, with the


individuals he obtained, rather than the qualities they represented." 






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